Curse

Age · Jun 27, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

There is really nothing that can be done about this as it is the internet and it is best to wait and make full contact with the server.

Hiotoko · Jun 27, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

There is really nothing that can be done about this as it is the internet and it is best to wait and make full contact with the server.

If that were so, I'd be having this problem with countless other online games I play. But I don't, saying "it's the internet" is no excuse for something that should have been fixed long ago.

Ctb · Jun 28, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

There is really nothing that can be done about this as it is the internet and it is best to wait and make full contact with the server.

I think this place should have one of those setups like online ToS boxes, where you can't do anything until you've at least scrolled past the content you're ostensibly working with.

I mean.. how many times has the issue been explained that clearly indicates it's not just a lag problem, it's a known bug in the game, just in this thread? And still people are posting that it's a lag problem.

If it weren't for failure, there would be hardly anything on the internet...

It's a long standing bug in the game that there is no intention to fix. It's not a lag issue, lag just intensifies the underlying problem. Stop posting that it's just lag. It's not just lag. It's a known bug involving the client not being properly updated on the avatar's position from the server's perspective under some circumstances, especially those involving running and speed buffs.

Thank you.

TwinRaven · Jun 28, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

rubberbanding is your own fault.
when you get bodyblocked you only appear to run past but you are actually still back there. learn not to get bodyblocked and dont get rubberband.

This is, perhaps, one of the most assinine statements I have ever read in this forum...

How do you KNOW you are body-blocked if you appear to have run past the enemy? Then, when you see the continued damage there is no way to find an opening then the enemies are not visible. It's like telling a blind man his his fault he tripped over the couch when someone else rearranged his furniture...

The tripping is your own fault.
When you get your furniture rearranged you only appear to trip but you are actually just running into furniture. Learn not to trip and the furniture will move.

Rubberbanding is more likely a result of errors due to connection quality or when the game cheats. Yes, it sounds outrageous, but games have built in cheats for the AI that allows them to change direction when on patrol ever though they are outside the aggro bubble, see through walls, and body block through a mini teleport jump in front of your character...It is a design element to make AI appear more intelligent than it actually is. In this particular case it is probably the server work going on that is effecting the connection quality.

freelancer604 · Jun 28, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

"Rubber banding" is just one of the kinds of networking lag people experience in the game. Every game has this problem, its not really a "bug" like most people imagine it. Its really no different from some lagger twitching real hard or freezing in midair in Counter Strike etc.

Ugh if only we can fix lag all together.. it hits games like GW the hardest, where positioning and running of objects like flags and relics is key

So many HoH and GVG battles lost cuz of this.

Greedy Gus · Jun 28, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

It's a long standing bug in the game that there is no intention to fix. It's not a lag issue, lag just intensifies the underlying problem. Stop posting that it's just lag. It's not just lag. It's a known bug involving the client not being properly updated on the avatar's position from the server's perspective under some circumstances, especially those involving running and speed buffs.

Thank you.

Not really a bug, more like A-net cutting corners with the network architecture, surely understanding the benefits and problems involved.

Buzzer · Jun 28, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

It's like telling a blind man his his fault he tripped over the couch when someone else rearranged his furniture...

The tripping is your own fault.
When you get your furniture rearranged you only appear to trip but you are actually just running into furniture. Learn not to trip and the furniture will move.

Rubberbanding is more likely a result of errors due to connection quality or when the game cheats. Yes, it sounds outrageous, but games have built in cheats for the AI that allows them to change direction when on patrol ever though they are outside the aggro bubble, see through walls, and body block through a mini teleport jump in front of your character...It is a design element to make AI appear more intelligent than it actually is. In this particular case it is probably the server work going on that is effecting the connection quality.

That analogy doesn't hold up. Noone is blind. We can see exactly where the enemy is. If we run too close to them, we run the risk of being rubberbanded. We have to work with what we've got: adapt.

As for the AI teleporting to block you etc.
lol

t h i n e eyes b l e e d · Jun 28, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

I thought it was a ..... Conspiracy? to stop people running and to get people to play the story. And I still think it is :P

aaje vhanli · Jun 28, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

This whole argument suggesting "it's your fault, stay away from tight corners and mobs" does not always apply. Lately, I've been having this issue in the middle of empty space. Now that's some serious lag. And none of my other online games (which are even more technically demanding) are having problems, which suggests to me that it is aNet's servers.

Sure, some of the problem for some people could be tight corners or mobs, but in some of our cases this is not our systems or "the [general] internet"... In fact, I rarely have this problem in GW so that it happens around a maintenance time (yet continues to persist) supports the speculation that aNet's servers are in affect.

TwinRaven · Jun 28, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzer

That analogy doesn't hold up. Noone is blind. We can see exactly where the enemy is. If we run too close to them, we run the risk of being rubberbanded. We have to work with what we've got: adapt.

As for the AI teleporting to block you etc.
lol

Let's say my analogy isn't the greatest, but I think I made my point...You can't blame the player for a fault in the game that places the character at a disadvantage. And NO you cannot see the enemies exact location and just avoid them all the time. There are times when your view on you monitor shows mobs outside of your agro, then your forward progress appears to stop (lag), mobs attack that weren't there before (there being inside agro) then you run for it and are getting shit-hammered by enemies you can't see. Adaptation to this is simple...rezone and start over, but who wants to do that?

Personally, I find these kinds of comments a pointless form of trolling...The OP has a problem and instead of helping out, you (and others) feel the need to rub their face it it and offer little or no help...way to go there champ!

As for AI cheating, there are several articles about it in PC Gamer and the like. It is a design element that makes up for the lack of intuition in gaming AI and is widely known by serious gamers...Games cheat:

From Wikipedia (not the greatest source of info on the planet, but great if you don't have time to look elsewhere):

Cheating AI is a term used to describe the situation where the AI has bonuses over the players, such as having more hit-points, driving faster, or ignoring fog of war. It is usually used in games to artificially increase the difficulty of the game because game AI lacks the learning and reasoning abilities of human players and would be easily defeated after a minimum of trial and error if it were not for the bonuses. The definition of "cheating" can be unclear. Game developers might define it as a privilege given specifically to the AI, while players might think of it as any advantage the AI may have, including inhuman swiftness and accuracy.

A common example of this is found in many racing games. If an AI opponent falls far enough behind the rest of the drivers it suddenly receives an enormous boost in speed (and in the case of Kart Racers, such as Mario Kart, give them the items most effective at disabling the lead) enabling it to catch up and again become competitive. This technique is known as "rubber banding" because it allows the AI character to instantly snap back into a competitive position.

This method is also used in sports games such as EA Sports' Madden NFL series. The technique is similar to "rubber banding" in that the computer-controlled opponent is given an artificial boost if its team falls behind. When AI is programmed in this manner, it is referred to by both programmers and players as "cheat code" or "catch-up" code.

The use of cheating in AI is controversial, especially by players who criticize it as giving the computer unfair advantages over human players and by purists who believe the AI should operate under the same parameters as other players. Common rebuttals to such complaints include that the computer starts at a disadvantage because it lacks the improvisational skills of humans and that cheats are added for practical gameplay reasons.

There is only a problem when the player notices the computer is cheating, then it appears that there is a bug or other problem...when it lacks subtlty, the illusion of fair play is broken. Situations arise where you get pounded mercilessly...there is no fix, no adaptation...just grit your teeth and start over...It is not the fault of the player or anyone else. It's just a series of variables coming together at an inopportune time.

aaje vhanli · Jun 28, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Nice post, TwinRaven.

Robbert Monga · Jun 28, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

This technique is known as "rubber banding" because it allows the AI character to instantly snap back into a competitive position.

ugh... this "rubberbanding" has nothing to do with lag rubberbanding outlined in OP.
Which has a fairly trivial reason. Ever since release of Factions ANet loaded up servers with more users they could realistically handle, so they had to increase syncing intervals to reduce server and network load.
How does it work? Well, very simple. Game client doesn't acutally tell server about every step your character make. However server still have to verify that you havent hacked your client and walking around through the walls. So client sends "breakpoints" of your actions and server does reasonable predictions about what you do. The more often breakpoints are made, the more accurate picture you see on your screen. And in case of lag or server load or some other crap server will accept last breakpoint and say "wow-wow-wow dude, not good... according to my calculations you shouldn't be at this point, you should be at that point" and client obeys... which is what you see as literally rubberbanding effect on your screen.
For this very reason i strongly advise you to not use "W" for running long distances. Use mouse click instead. That way your client sends your desired destination to the server, as opposed to each and every step you make, so in case of hickup, you will still end up where you wanted to and not get pulled back to somewhere in the middle of your path. This is also much better for running through mobs as server will precalculate your path and will see right away if you are getting blocked.

Greedy Gus · Jun 28, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Yeah that's referring to rubber-band AI in racing games, completely different thing (but possibly as frustrating).

TwinRaven · Jun 28, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

^^Sure, sure...Robert, I was referring to AI cheating in response to a previous post. AI does it by design, we do it by unfortunate circumstance. The AI cheating, in conjunction with instances not refreshing quickly together can be ultra frustrating...And yeah, GREAT (<-- no sarcasm intended...) advice about mouse running vs. keyboard running.

And yes Gus, it gives an example of a racing game, but this mechanic is built into AI throughout the gaming industry. If mobs had no cheats built into their AI, they would not behave as "intelligently" as they do. The cheats are there for a reason: challenge. It's really common practice...it just gets annoying when you catch it.

Robbert Monga · Jun 28, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

sorry i didn't follow every line of discussion, so just replied to a post that seemed interesting

TwinRaven · Jun 28, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

sorry i didn't follow every line of discussion, so just replied to a post that seemed interesting

Sorry? What for? Who reads every line anyway? Your advice is a great idea btw...I've taken to doing it from time to time, but it's hard to get out of the habit of mashing that W key.

Age · Jun 28, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiotoko

If that were so, I'd be having this problem with countless other online games I play. But I don't, saying "it's the internet" is no excuse for something that should have been fixed long ago.

Those other games aren't instanced based are they I get rubberbading doing runs.The only way to prevent this is by clicking on the map for a few sec.

Javeron · Jun 29, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Am I the only one that sees humor, however cruel, in lag?

aaje vhanli · Jun 29, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I've laughed at lag every now and again.

N1ghtstalker · Jun 29, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

had some bad cases in the past
even some without direct contact with other chars
great to find yourself in the center of a mob when you thought you got out